Does he have it on Barnstormers, Trade a Plane etc. ". You should know that, despite the above, there are possibly more similarities than differences between the Cessna 172 and the Cessna 150. front so youve got good visibility, and, like the Champ it is derived from, it is an easy, forgiving airplane. you have to plan for fabric recovery and fabric repair. In the early 90s up to the when the Flying Educators sold the Citabria in 1995, the hourly rate was $21 wet, and the monthly club dues were $42. As a small pilot, with a great deal of experience in the Cessna 150, I most definitely prefer it. Grumman Tiger. If you fly a Tiger for 20 or 30 hours and get into a Cessna 172, it feels like a truck., You cant go wrong with either a Citabria or a Grumman Tiger in your club. The plane was always in a hangar probably a major factor.. That said, the Citabria is a good aircraft to use for tailwheel training. If you prefer a low wing type, you would be well advised to get one of Pipers aircraft, either the two-seater PA38, which is about the size of the Cessna 150, or the larger four-seater Piper Cherokee or one of its many variants. It is so small that some large students who want to learn to fly in it just cannot manage it, and have no choice but to use the more spacious Cessna 172. I this video, I take my friend Dominick to Bakersfield to pick up that C. Every time I think of trading up, I have a hard time thinking of selling a really good airplane , The Cessna 150 is the best simple and economical airplane one could ask to own. Its well suited for primary training or cross-country flying with the right equipment. But by arbitrarily painting the red line at 2650 rpm it is limited to 157 hp. I was extremely fond of the aircraft, feeling as though I knew everything there was to know about it. You get the sense of sitting at a low desk on a mountaintop. It burns 7 gph and the clubcharges $86 an hour. At the end of the day, Greg noted that most members fly solo or with only one passenger and, for that reason, the airplane has to be fun to fly, and it is. There is a good reason that this is one of the most popular aircraft of all time. With afixed-pitch prop and fixed gear, its simple to operate. 157 hp is less than 5% more than the original 150 hp, and 5% is the fudge factor the FAA allows to avoid recertification. site, simply click the Register button on the Pilots Place login page to sign Former Flying Educators Club Secretary and Treasurer Greg Utley shares his thoughts on both aircraft. first Tiger policy premium was $2,360 in 1996, which was slightly higher than the Citabria. Former Flying Educators Club Secretary and Treasurer Greg Utley shares his thoughts on both aircraft. What are real world numbers for these two at 75%? He can be found on Instagram as @cessnateur. That phrase sort of confuses me. Its well suite, Grumman produced the AA5B Tiger from 1975 through 1979, and then American General produced the AG5B Tiger from 1991 through 1993. I think the only way I would chose the Traveller of the Gruman line was because I could get a good airframe and avionics package and upgrade to 180hp cheaper than I could buy a Tiger for, and I don't really see that happening. The first time someone gets into an airplane like that and youre taxiing with a crosswind, you want to drag the brake to keep it going straight, Greg said. Jason McDowell is a private pilot and Cessna 170 owner based in Madison, Wisconsin. If you had a Tiger without the autopilot, its not going to be quite as stable as a 172 or a 182. I'd take one over a 172 in a heartbeat. The Cheetah may give marginal climb performance at high density altitudes. Since it is a tube and fabric airplane, its best to keep it in a hangar. Aerodynamischer Feinschliff verbesserte die Reisegeschwindigkeit von 139 auf 143 Knoten. So please dont just leap into a Cessna 172 with no experience and expect it to be just like the Cessna 150; it is different. The Cessna 172 is a lot more powerful than the Cessna 150. (I'm at Hollywood aviation in the plane ports. As with the AA-5A, the AA-5B was continued in production by Gulfstream when they purchased Grumman's American division. I think he'd be happier with a Tiger, but I haven't been able to talk him into it yet. Enter your email and click on the I am a A number of these became known as Gulfstream Americans when Gulfstream bought the Grumman line and sold them through 1979. Seriously, the acquisition cost is the least of his worries. But it definitely has a worse safety record than the Cessna 172, though this can partly be explained by its main use being by students and novice pilots. What are the main differences between them? I was gonna ask him the same thing. Between 4,000 feet and 10,000 feet, depending on temperature, it gets between 8.3 gph to 9.2 gph. Insurance for our 1979 Citabria (Model 7-ECA) was $870 in 89 and had risen to $2,195 when we sold it in 95, Greg said. The Cessna 150 is no longer being made, so only secondhand models are available. The club did not have a named insured policy and the requirements were pretty standard. To provide a more up-to-date cost perspective, the Wild River Flying Club in Osceola, WI operates a 1979 Citabria with a 150-hp Lycoming O-320. The airplane received minor aerodynamic improvements for the 1975 model year, which was its last year of production. Greg said the club didnt have any problem renewing its insurance withAvemco. The hull is insured at $65,000 with $1 million liability. Although the airplane hasnt been manufactured for quite some time, Greg said parts are easy to get. Its nimble in the air, seats four, and has a good cruising speed with minimal fuel burn. They are faster, handle more crisply, have a nice sliding canopy, and are a bit more unusual than offerings from other aircraft in their class from Cessna, Piper and Beech . One letter called the new Cessna 172 "the rough technological and stylisticequivalent of a 1966 Chevy Novaat the price of two Mercedes." Another called the announced $124,500 base price of the new Skyhawk"incredible" and suggested that $75,000 or $80,000 would be appropriate. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Pilots Operating Handbook Grumman Tiger at the best online prices at eBay! The reason Flying Educators switched from, country flying. Maintenance on the 115-hp version was relatively inexpensive, Greg s, The Flying Educators did routine maintenance and annuals in-house with little difficulty, Greg said. Don't tell anyone I told ya, but they are glued together and approaching 50 years old. Because there are so many of them, and they have been around a long time, there are a large number of mechanics and engineers who are familiar with what needs to be done to keep them in good working order, and obtaining parts for them should not be an issue either; they are easily available, even for the older Cessna 150s. assistance. Both the Piper Archer and Cessna 172 have similar safety scores. The Cessna 150 vs 172 are similar in many ways. ). People tend to step on the seats just a problem of not knowing how to get in the plane, I believe the wing is a time life item and the end of the plane. And a little more economically.. Jason McDowell. Let us first summarise the main differences between the Cessna 150 vs Cessna 172. Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by SixPapaCharlie, Dec 14, 2015. Helen is an expert in all things aviation! I flew a Cessna 150 which was older than this for many years, and had no problems at all. The bonded aluminum construction eliminates the need for rivets, so even sitting on the ground it looks sleek. It includes a touch-and-go,. Answer: You wont need a lot of extra tuition, but a few hours with an instructor would really be a good idea. Thank you for being a part of the Cessna 172 Club! Early models through the 1970s can be purchased starting around $35,000 with prices increasing to about $95,000 for a newer model produced after 2000. ). Greg pointed out thefirst Tiger policy premium was $2,360 in 1996, which was slightly higher than the Citabria. CTAF audio is included. The Aircraft Spotlight feature looks at an airplane type and evaluates it across six areas of particular interest to flying clubs and their members: Operating Cost, Maintenance, Insurability, Training, Cross-Country, and Fun Factor. Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited. Accordingly, a good, reliable engine-monitoring system is a wise investment, and with the proper adapter, savvy buyers can download engine-monitor data to observe how a seller has been treating the engine. She's published several books and articles on all things aviation and is eager to continue sharing her knowledge! So this might well decide things for you. Cessna 172. Similar four-seatGrummansinclude the 150-hp AA5 Traveler and AA5A Cheetah, and the 160-hp GA7 Cougar. The reports of excellent visibility are not overstated: The wraparound windows, low beltline and low instrument panel provide a panoramic view. AA-5 prices can vary widely, but when we exclude the most extreme examples in a recent sampling of listings, the majority fall in the $30,000 to $60,000 range. The Tiger was designed by Grumman engineers and was first produced in late 1974 as the 1975 model. Insurance should be similarly straightforward. Considering pre-flight, trip time, rides to and from airports, etc., it was faster driving on any trip less than about 200 miles. The most popular of the Grumman series, the Tiger seats four, has a 180-hp engine, and burns 10 gph. The cost of ownership includes the original purchase price of the airplane, then you have you fixed cost like hangar, insurance etc. Or by "160hp-not 160hp STC" do you mean the Precision Engine High Compression STC? Accordingly, AA-5s are quick to convert a light nudge of the yoke into an instant change in attitude. Bede designed the two-place BD-1 with an emphasis on speed and economy, and when it was purchased by American Aviation and developed into the AA-1 series, these qualities were carried over. The Tiger was designed by Grumman engineers and was first produced in late 1974 as the 1975 model. The AA-5 series serves as an interesting alternative to the comparable Cessna and Piper models that make up the general aviation fleet. On the other hand, smaller people may struggle to fly the Cessna 172, particularly earlier models. The Citabria is a derivative of the Aeronca Champ and was first produced in 1964 by Champion Aircraft Corporation. Cessna Cessna 172 Technical Specifications Exterior Exterior Height: 8 ft 8 in Wing Span: 35 ft 8 in Length: 26 ft 9 in Interior Cabin Volume: 55 cu ft Internal Baggage: 30 cu ft Occupancy Crew: 1 Passengers: 3 Operating Weights Max T/O Weight: 2400 Lb Max Landing Weight: 2400 Lb Operating Weight: 1666 Lb Empty Weight: 1454 Lb It all comes down to what your mission is. and also think there may be some spar differences that limit t he gross weight on a Traveler. While the difference between the two is by no means huge, the 152 is the more economical option. In the year or two Greg was in the club while it operated the Citabria, there were no new members without prior tailwheel experience. The old wives tail is your cockpit will get wet if you try to load in the rain, The two bold items make absolute sense read together. I had been learning about 172s. And its either retractable, more horse power or probably both, OR AN RV which won't carry nearly as much. Sitting in tandem provides an excellent view, and youre probably more likely to land on grass and go places you might not in a Cherokee or 172, which just adds to the experience. moved! So if you plan to take the family on holiday or something similar, the Cessna 172 is probably what you will need. We havent had any major problems with the Tiger., Aero on Demand said annuals without squawks. Moving to the Grumman Tiger meant they could have a four-place aircraft better suited for cross-country travel and still have a plane that was responsive. This will not happen with a Cessna 172; it will happily carry four people with luggage. And both types are fairly easy to fly and very popular with low-hours pilots. So again, if you want to take the family on holiday, having a plane which is faster, more powerful, and can carry more weight, may decide things for you. AA-5B Tiger. Please contact the friendly folks at the Pilots Place for Aero on Demand, a Houston-based club, also operates a Tiger and it is equipped with an engine monitor providing very accurate data. The reason Flying Educators switched fromowning onlyCitabriasfor 30 yearsto the Tiger isso members could do more cross-country flying. The seats move further forward in the more modern versions of the Cessna 172, but even so, I find it easier to fly the Cessna 150, where everything is within easy reach. Citabria burned about 5 to 6 gph, making it economical to operate. Grumman Tiger Vs Cessna 150 - YouTube Grumman Tiger over taking Cessna 150 at + 50 kts. Insurance premiums went from over $3,000 in 2002 to over $6,000 in 2010. For more than 30 years, the 10-member club owned a Citabria. But that is what most private pilots prefer to do. Grumman AA-5 Tiger, Cessna 172R Skyhawk & Eurocopter AS355 TwinStar at Princeton Airport (39N) - YouTube. Fuse to Circuit Breakers - Grumman Style: Replacing your old fuse holders with Klixon 7277-2 series circuit breakers. A 1975 Grumman AA-5B Tiger (N74429) \u0026 a 1997 Cessna 172R Skyhawk landing on Runway 10 at Princeton Airport (39N) in New Jersey followed by a 1982 Eurocopter AS366 TwinStar (N355MT) taking off shortly upon my arrival on the field. The plane was always in a hangar probably a major factor.. It also makes a nice IFR-platform if it is properly equipped. All rights reserved. The later versions produced in the 1990s and 2000s will cost a bit more with prices in the $75,000 to $100,000 range. Youre going to get more airspeed out of a Tiger than youre going to get out of most four-place aircraft in that category, Greg said. Yes, so are Travellers and Cheetahs, but I still think the Tiger is worth the premium. I've never heard anyone say the sliding canopy leaks. Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by BellyUpFish, Aug 29, 2011. Depends. Ill look around later for it. It was developed from the 1948 Cessna 170 but with tricycle landing gear rather than conventional landing gear.The Skyhawk name was originally used for a trim package, but was later applied to . ", Surprisingly, the Citabria was used for cross-country trips more often than you would think, but only if arrival time requirements werent challenging, Greg said. The final variant of the AA-5 line was the AA-5B Tiger. If your club is looking for an economical aircraft that can serve as a primary trainer and a solid cross-country platformwith good performance, the Grumman Tiger is a plane you may want to consider. Hi, Eddie, I'm at KHWO, too! Among thedifferencesare enginesize,with variations from 115 hp to 180 hp, and whether the wing spar is metal or wood. Its very responsive. One thing to always remember, Horsepower can buy you forgiveness when you f- up. Both are inexpensive to operate and maintai. $37.09 + $15.58 shipping . Its roll rate is faster than a Piper or Cessna. The clubwanted an airplane better suited for cross-country travelandthey settled on the Grumman AA5B Tiger. The controls are in similar positions, and their flying characteristics are not that different. Topping the range is the AA-5B Tiger, which entered production as a 1975 model and differed from the Cheetah primarily by being equipped with the more powerful 180 hp Lycoming O-360. Your time savings are going to be marginal if anything. Finding a good mechanic that has tube and fabric experience and expertise is important, and it could be a little more challenging to find than someone used to working on 172s or Cherokees. To provide a more up-to-date cost perspective, the Wild River Flying Club in Osceola, WI operates a 1979 Citabria with a 150-hp Lycoming O-320. Fold down back seats make an awesome cargo hauler with over 6-1/2 feet of room. This isn't chump speed, since the AA-5, by virtue of its slab-sided honeycomb panel fuselage, is hardly slick in the drag department. The Cessna 172, on the other hand, is still in production. One consideration is thatlong-termyou have to plan for fabric recovery and fabric repair. The Main Differences Between the Piper Archer and Cessna 172. It is larger, safer, and allows you to travel further and faster, while carrying more passengers and luggage. Join Us | Member Benefits |News| Events |Contact Us. Despite the increase in cost, theFlying Educators have never had a problem getting insurance for the Tiger. They are both basically a means to make aerial journeys, designed for touring or simply pleasure flying. You cant go wrong with either a Citabria or a Grumman Tiger in your club. For a club with a 30-year history flying only. I don't think 150 nm is enough distance to justify flying. Ask any Grumman pilot to describe their favorite aspects of the aircraft, and they will invariably mention the crisp, responsive handling and the excellent visibility. It s the same friendly, informative place for all things Cessna 172, now with a larger group of pilots and state-of-the-art forum software. FletchAir down at Boerne Stage (5C1) is the regional guru of Grumman. Small ruder for X wind landing, more than one landed on nose wheel and met their demise not that other aircraft don't. All spars are life-limited to 12,000 to 12,500 hours, underscoring the importance of having a detailed logbook history. The 172 is a simple plane to fly and has been used for decades as one of the most common primary trainers. Man erkennt eine AG-5B auch am T-frmigen Gashebel. The Grumman Pilots Association and Grumman Gang are additional resources, and enthusiastic support is available to the owner community in the form of online forums and video tutorials. Three or four of the 10 members would use it for aerobatics a lot. Greg said. Compared with those from other manufacturers, the Grumman design replaces many of the cables and pulleys with torque tubes. One of the challenges is finding instructors who can teach in it whether its tailwheel or aerobatic. I don't think 150 nm is enough distance to justify flying. The AG-5B is uncommon, with only 150 produced as compared to more than 3,000 Travelers, Cheetahs and AA-5B Tigers. Otherwise, owners report that the AA-5 family is largely free of issues, and they enjoy great support and parts availability from companies such as Excel-Air Services in Indiana and Fletchair in Texas. Among the most valuable resources available to Grumman owners are the bustling owners groups. Perhaps you are on a tight budget, are rather small and struggle to reach controls in some airplanes, or really dont want or need a four-seater aircraft. It will also carry more weight, as mentioned above. News From HQ: Old, New, and You. Through various ownership changes, such as Bellanca and now American Champion Aircraft Corporation, the simple, well-liked design has continued on with additional variations being produced such as the Decathlon and Scout. At these airframe weights, 20hp buys a good bit of forgiveness. The Cessna 150 is a two-seater aircraft, whereas the Cessna 172 is a lot larger than the Cessna 150, having four seats. Or you might prefer the Grumman AA5B, or perhaps the Diamond DV20/DA20 Katana, Ercoupe 415-C, or Diamond DA40 Star, all of which are said to be safe and easy to fly. Private and Commercial helicopter licenses and Instructor Rating were quickly added to her resume. It's kinda underpowered for what we were doing with it, luckily no one was heavy and the distances weren't far. Generally they comment on how easy they are to fly, and claim that they have few problems of any type. Kinda dicey actually. Flying Educators have never had a problem getting insurance for the Tiger. We havent had any major problems with the Tiger.Aero on Demand said annuals without squawksrun about $1,200 depending on the going rate in your part of the country. Editorial Team Cessna 172 Skyhawk. Although the airplane hasnt been manufactured for quite some time, Greg said parts are easy to get. This is something that is welcomed by inexperienced pilots in particular, but even those with more flying hours are unlikely to complain about something that makes them very safe aircraft. just ain't that kind of aircraft. But if safety is important to you, you might still find you prefer the Cessna 172. Wouldnt mind having it myself! Pilots Operating Handbook Cessna 152- Pilots Safety And Warning . , and whether the wing spar is metal or wood. Aircraft Spotlight: Comparing the Citabria and the Grumman Tiger, FAA publishes 'Aviation Weather Handbook'. Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by WVTexan, Nov 21, 2013. Depending on how much exposure it has to the sun, it will need to be replaced generally about every 25 to 30 years. Still not fast enough to be a real cross country plane, imho. Autopilot, 430W, PS Engineering audio panel, JPI 830, new paint and interior. And, if you are doing aerobatics, you need parachutes that need to be repacked regularly, which would add a cost. I only have time in the AA1X series, the baby brother of the tiger, the canopy design I think is one of the better ones in GA, no issues, the free castor nose wheel was great for ground handling, nice shock absorbing and strong fiberglass mains, good fuel tank system, etc. The specs list the cruise speed at 139 knots, but Greg said theFlying Educators usually fly ateconomy cruise and get 115ktsto 120ktsground speed whilethe180-hp Lycoming O360 burns 10 gph. The Tiger has a published book cruise speed of 139 knots but owners generally plan on real-world speeds of 130 to 138 knots. The later versions produced in the 1990s and 2000s will cost a bit more with prices in the $75,000 to $100,000 range. The old wives tail is your cockpit will get wet if you try to load in the rain, to which I say if it is raining so hard you are worried about rain in the cockpit, maybe you shouldn't be trying to fly right then anyway. I have a bunch of time in the Cheetah and a friend has a Traveller with the 160hp-not 160hp STC - great little planes. It was largely a matter of economics, Greg said. It will keep up with a 182. However, the fun-factor overrode practicality from time to time.. Flying Educators requires members to already have their Private Pilot Certificate, but Greg would recommend the aircraft as a primary trainer. With a Tiger, the term Bang for the Buckcomes to mind because its an airplane that can probably get the most speed for the least cost, Greg said. Externally the Tiger looked much like the AA-5 Traveler and AA-5A Cheetah so once again Grumman's marketing department came up with a distinctive decal package to differentiate the design this time a "galloping tiger". Even if you dont use the Citabria for aerobatics, there is something romantic about flying a taildragger with a stick particularly one that is light and responsive to control inputs. Krish discussed having to change some avionics, propeller, engine cowling, and after 300 hours of flying him and his partners also had to overhaul the 180hp engine, which cost a whopping $28,000. Are the LoPresti Tiger cowls in production yet? There is a reason why so many people fly the Cessna 172, and why it is said to be the most popular aircraft ever produced. members wanted an aircraft more suited to that mission. The plane cruised at around 115 mph and had about a 20-gallon fuel tank, Greg recalled. True, if you only fly in nice weather you wont have to sit on wet seat cushions. Indeed. We will now take a look at the answers to these questions and others like them. It continued to look good until it was sold. It seems unique. Huge windows, plus the top of the glareshield is low. And that was the main consideration.. Just went with a friend to check one out. I know better. 2. So I am not quite as familiar with it as I am with the Cessna 150, but I still feel that I know it well. With a power setting of 2550 rpm to 2600 rpm, Mike usually cruises between 135 and 138 knots. Members only needed a current medical, current flight review, CFI checkout with logbook entry for the club aircraft make and model, and at least 10 hours in tailwheel aircraft. They're thrifty to run, simple to maintain, light on the controls and have great visibility with their sliding canopies. Grumman-American, on the other hand, never certified the AA-5x for 160 hp. get there? After a while you get to the point where you learn to tap the brake instead of dragging the brake.". They are both all single-engined metal high-wing light aircraft, which were made in large numbers by Cessna, and aimed at the private flying and training market. A number of Cheetahs can be found equipped with the 180 hp O-360, which is available as an STC. ne cruised at around 115 mph and had about a 20-gallon fuel tank, Greg recalled. However, there are still a huge number being flown. But by all means give it a try and see how you get on. The second part is correct, but the first is not. It holds 52 gallons and has a range of about 700 miles. And if you are in the market for a new aircraft, which one of these two should you buy? Gross weight was increased from the AA-5/AA-5A's 2,200 lb (1,000 kg) to 2,400 lb (1,100 kg) on the Tiger. Insurance premiums went from over $3,000 in 2002 to over $6,000 in 2010. But in the mid-90s, they decided to make a change. Its the I dont recall any surcharges because it was aerobatic and had a conventional gear.. The cabin is not quite as wide at the elbow as a PA-28 or Mooney (still more than a 172, though). ). Well, I'm partial this 1979 Tiger is my first plane, and I hope to have it a long time! If my friend buys it, I'll get a checkout from the current owner, who is a CFI before we start working in it. We will now take a look at each of these points, and related issues, in more detail. After 5 years I wonder if the deal was done. Some smaller pilots struggle to fly the Cessna 172, while some large people find they have problems in the Cessna 150, The Cessna 172 is more expensive to buy, and also to hire, than the Cessna 150, Although both types are very safe, the Cessna 172 is said to be significantly safer. Both of these aircraft are made by Cessna and are fairly similar when it comes to flying. What do I need to do? But we were both fairly small, and we did have to limit ourselves to only a small amount of luggage, so as not to find ourselves with weight and balance issues. That said, the Citabria is a good aircraft to use for tailwheel training. I have been googling like a mad man learning about them. The Cessna 150-152 and light taildraggers have been the stalwarts of basic, entry-level aviation. This appealing blend can be found elsewhere, but few options supplement it with the robust network of parts, service and support enjoyed by Grumman owners. The 172 is basically the big sister to the 152-it's a nearly identical airframe, just larger in every dimension to hold four people. They have an unnamed policy, meaning they dont have to list their members or their flight time, so anyone who joins the club is insured. , the members were used to something light and agile on the controls. They can provide anything for the airplanewheels, wheel pants, windshields, cowlings, anything you need for a Tiger or similar Grumman aircraftthey can provide.. I have watched a lot of Nat Geo, Wild Kingdom, etc. Useful load on most of Tigers I've seen run in 900-950lb range. Get the Tiger, you local flights will get boring after 100 hours and you'll want to stretch out to further destinations. (You must log in or sign up to reply here. There is a beautiful Grumman at my airport for sale. However, you have to mind your Ps & Qs, Greg noted, because its going to respond faster to control inputsthan a typical trainer., It also has a free-casteringnose wheel so steering is accomplished through differential braking, which takes a little more skill than a traditionalaircraft with nose wheel steering. Am I safe to buy a Cheetah, get IFR and build 200 hours then sell -- or will I get bored before then and wish I would have waited for a Tiger? If you have an autopilot, its a wonderful cross-country bird, Greg said.